SSJ mutiplier and the Base Saiyans.

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SSJ mutiplier and the Base Saiyans.
Tweet Topic Started: Oct 19 2013, 03:55 PM (2,366 Views)
kuartus4	Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Post #46
Posts: 248 Group: Member Member #9,157 Joined: March 8, 2013	Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta @lunar, " direct statement that base gohan goku and vegeta are stronger than piccolo? Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.” krillin, piccolo, and kibito were trash. goku, gohan and vegeta were not." Couple things. Everyone was suppressed, so babadi could not have used ki sensing to see who was stronger than who. He might have used some magical ability which allowed him to feel the saiysns were stronger due to hidden ssj potential, even though he didn't know about ssj. Second, babadi's and dabura's ki sensing abilities were crap. They thought pui pui could handle them. So I would take their power statements with a grain of salt.



lunar2	Oct 19 2013, 11:56 PM Post #47
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	that actually works just fine. that's still about a 3x increase in one year with no sparring partner, about the same increase vegeta got under the same conditions.
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


+ Emmeth	Oct 19 2013, 11:57 PM Post #48
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	kuartus4 Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta Android 18 and Krillin specifically said they would aim for the money places, not 1st place.
	My Twitch Page


lunar2	Oct 20 2013, 12:00 AM Post #49
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	kuartus4 Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta @lunar, " direct statement that base gohan goku and vegeta are stronger than piccolo? Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.” krillin, piccolo, and kibito were trash. goku, gohan and vegeta were not." Couple things. Everyone was suppressed, so babadi could not have used ki sensing to see who was stronger than who. He might have used some magical ability which allowed him to feel the saiysns were stronger due to hidden ssj potential, even though he didn't know about ssj. Second, babadi's and dabura's ki sensing abilities were crap. They thought pui pui could handle them. So I would take their power statements with a grain of salt. they knew that everyone was suppressed. they estimated how much power they actually had. it was an underestimation, but is still valid as to the relative powers of everyone there. just because one aspect of a statement or estimation is wrong, doesn't make the whole thing wrong. so actual base saiyans > expected base saiyans actual trash > expected trash actual base saiyans > actual trash also, pui pui wasn't some weak little nothing. he probably would have beaten base gohan, at least.
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


kuartus4	Oct 20 2013, 12:01 AM Post #50
Posts: 248 Group: Member Member #9,157 Joined: March 8, 2013	Emmeth Oct 19 2013, 11:57 PM kuartus4 Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta Android 18 and Krillin specifically said they would aim for the money places, not 1st place. That still means beating out strong people. Goku is 1st place and who's second and third? Krillin and 18?



+ Emmeth	Oct 20 2013, 12:02 AM Post #51
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	kuartus4 Oct 20 2013, 12:01 AM Emmeth Oct 19 2013, 11:57 PM kuartus4 Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta Android 18 and Krillin specifically said they would aim for the money places, not 1st place. That still means beating out strong people. Goku is 1st place and who's second and third? Krillin and 18? Money for the 6 best though, iirc.
	My Twitch Page


+ Pyrus	Oct 20 2013, 12:04 AM Post #52
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	kuartus4 Oct 20 2013, 12:01 AM Emmeth Oct 19 2013, 11:57 PM kuartus4 Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta Android 18 and Krillin specifically said they would aim for the money places, not 1st place. That still means beating out strong people. Goku is 1st place and who's second and third? Krillin and 18? You're trying too hard to complicate this. Gohan > Goku > Vegeta > No.18 > Krillin As far as midget boy and the android were concerned.
	Spoiler: click to toggle


kuartus4	Oct 20 2013, 12:06 AM Post #53
Posts: 248 Group: Member Member #9,157 Joined: March 8, 2013	lunar2 Oct 20 2013, 12:00 AM kuartus4 Oct 19 2013, 11:55 PM Sage Oct 19 2013, 11:00 PM Then he wants to just take part because we know he doesn't want the money or to win. Krillin wanted to win the tournament. I guess that means Krillin>base vegeta @lunar, " direct statement that base gohan goku and vegeta are stronger than piccolo? Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.” krillin, piccolo, and kibito were trash. goku, gohan and vegeta were not." Couple things. Everyone was suppressed, so babadi could not have used ki sensing to see who was stronger than who. He might have used some magical ability which allowed him to feel the saiysns were stronger due to hidden ssj potential, even though he didn't know about ssj. Second, babadi's and dabura's ki sensing abilities were crap. They thought pui pui could handle them. So I would take their power statements with a grain of salt. they knew that everyone was suppressed. they estimated how much power they actually had. it was an underestimation, but is still valid as to the relative powers of everyone there. just because one aspect of a statement or estimation is wrong, doesn't make the whole thing wrong. so actual base saiyans > expected base saiyans actual trash > expected trash actual base saiyans > actual trash also, pui pui wasn't some weak little nothing. he probably would have beaten base gohan, at least. How do you babadi didn't factor the saiyans hidden ssj potential into his estimations. He might not have known about ssj, but if he could sense hidden potential, he would sense the power potential that ssj gave them.



Zenet	Oct 20 2013, 12:17 AM Post #54
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	Am not sure about this but sensing suppressed ki and a transformation could be different.



kuartus4	Oct 20 2013, 12:23 AM Post #55
Posts: 248 Group: Member Member #9,157 Joined: March 8, 2013	Sage Oct 20 2013, 12:17 AM Am not sure about this but sensing suppressed ki and a transformation could be different. He's not sensing their transformation. He's sensing the hidden power that the transformation unlocks.



Zenet	Oct 20 2013, 12:28 AM Post #56
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	Only thing that can be sense is Base ki or SSJ ki



kuartus4	Oct 20 2013, 12:35 AM Post #57
Posts: 248 Group: Member Member #9,157 Joined: March 8, 2013	Sage Oct 20 2013, 12:28 AM Only thing that can be sense is Base ki or SSJ ki Babadi is a wizard with magical abilities. I don't doubt he could sense ssj power in base.



Zenet	Oct 20 2013, 12:37 AM Post #58
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	I mean there's no such thing as hidden ki power. Because I thought ki was either base or SSJ. Edited by Zenet, Oct 20 2013, 12:38 AM.



+ miguelnuva	Oct 20 2013, 12:41 AM Post #59
Posts: 4,068 Group: Elite Member Member #8,291 Joined: September 16, 2012 Favourite Anime DragonBall Z What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Sailor Moon	I don't think AT had a solid multiplier for SSJ when he was writing the Buu saga and I don't think he was trying to say base saiyans> piccolo more then he was saying the SSJs had the ki Buu needed and were the only ones important at that time.
	Gogeta power placement


* Ketchup Revenge	Oct 20 2013, 06:56 AM Post #60
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!" Posts: 6,083 Group: Retired Forum Moderator Member #9,012 Joined: February 9, 2013 Gender Not Specified Country Chile Favourite Anime FMA: Brotherhood, Dragon Ball, Samurai Champloo, Soul Eater, Assassination Classroom What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Fullmetal Alchemist, Assassination Classroom, Deadman Wonderland	Toriyama doesn't care about intricate details later in the series, which explains why the power scales of the Saiyan and Freeza sagas don't make sense when you look at the later series. His lack of caring about this is completely obvious considering that the entire reason he came up with numbers was to convey how ridiculous they were. In addition to this, he'd completely forgotten about far more relevant details in the series like Saiyan tails and even entire characters like Launch. So with this in mind, do people honestly believe that he would've cared to remember that he'd originally written SSj to be 50x base? Or that Goku and Vegeta in base during the Freeza and Android arcs were written to be several hundred times stronger than people on Krillin, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan's level? Transformations and even characters later in the series are written in tiers, not multipliers, although if you want to get technical, 2x the previous tier would be the next tier. It's simple from a writing standpoint, and if you want to see the series from Toriyama's POV, the later series when it comes to power scaling makes complete sense. SSj Goku is 2x Base Goku, which is the next tier. SSj2 Goku is 2x SSj Goku, which is the tier above that, and so on.
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